Apple Vision Pro – Winner or Flop? AI Chatbot mess, NZ facial recognition + more

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Episode Transcript

Paul Spain:
Hey, folks. Greetings, and welcome along to the New Zealand Tech Podcast. I’m your host, Paul Spain. Great to be back again. This week, we have Lance Bauerfeind joining us, for the first time, on the New Zealand Tech podcast. So, welcome along, Lance. Great to have you, great to have you joining us, on the New Zealand Tech podcast today. You’re the head of training and simulations at, at company x.

Paul Spain:
Tell us what’s that what that’s all about and, and what Company-X does.

Lance Bauerfeind :
Yeah. Certainly. So Company-X is a software development company primarily, and, a number of years ago, joined up with Company-X and, working in the VR, IR spatial computing area. So since then, we’ve been working with a number of different organizations, but also now working, with defense and, like I say, a number of other companies as well.

Paul Spain:
Yeah. Great. Well, yeah. Pleasure to have you on the show. A lot we wanna delve into today. We’ll talk about the the role of, AI facial recognition, which is is, starting to and and I think we probably first talked about this maybe a couple of years ago. Facial recognition sort of, you know, coming into play within our within our supermarkets. It’s been getting attention again.

Paul Spain:
New Rocket Lab, launch that’s this has taken place, with a with a focus on, helping to to address issues with, with space junk. Our phone, bans are, are coming into play in schools, very soon. In fact, some have have already started. Infotech co.nz is dead. I’ve put that in the the agenda as it was something that, that I found a little bit disappointing in the in the local, tech news world. And and then there’s a bunch of, you know, some interesting, global aspects. And, probably the real reason that, I was really keen to, to chat to you today, Lance, is really delving into, you know, what’s happening in the in the world of, virtual reality, augmented reality, and and this new thing of of spatial computing, particularly with the Apple Vision Pro and, your your, you know, thoughts on, on the Apple Vision Pro and whether whether that is, I guess, a a win or a or a fail, for Apple. So we’ll we’ll come back, to that one.

Paul Spain:
But first up, big thank you to our show partners, to OneNZ, 2degrees, Spark, HP, and Gorilla Technology. And, yeah, let’s let’s jump in on this, this facial recognition situation. We’ve been, you know, we’ve been seeing, really ongoing, attention, you know, across the the big media, to the supermarkets, looking or moving moving forward on on facial recognition, technology. So, yeah, food foodstuffs have have this trial, running in a number of stores. And you could call it a trial, but, you know, realistically, they’ve they’ve they’ve gone live with this technology, you know, in a numb number of number of supermarkets. And, you know, what we have seen in in New Zealand is is really ongoing issues, at a retail level when it comes to crime, that has really you know, seems to have dramatically increased over over, recent years. And, you know, of course, we see some very, you know, ex extreme, you know, scenarios there with, the likes of jewelers and so on getting, getting attacked. But, mostly sort of smash and grab type things.

Paul Spain:
But in my neighborhood, we we saw one of these dairy attacks where, you know, sadly, the the worker at the at the dairy was was killed. So, yeah, I’m I’m just kind of, you know, curious your, you know, your thoughts on on this type of technology, which has that, has that potential to, you know, maybe reduce the impact of of crime. And, you know, all of us are impacted in one way or another, when when crime increases. But we’ve also probably, you know, all all seen over the years sort of Hollywood, you know, productions where, there’s a level of of technology and artificial intelligence that kinda, you know, comes in to to help, minimize crime. And, there’s there’s all sorts of, you know, things things that end up, taking places and and bad uses, of the technology. And and, look, I was quite pleased to see, that food stuffs, you know, at this point are, are sort of, you know, ring fencing, you know, what they capture in terms of the facial recognition data. So if they’ve got, you know, maybe somebody that that offends at a particular supermarket, they’re not spreading that out across their entire network. Although it could be argued that, actually, that would have a that would have a bigger impact.

Paul Spain:
You know, but at this time, they’re, yeah, they’re keeping keeping that that, information to a specific store. They they do seem to be, you know, quite committed that, they’re not keeping data. So if you walk into a into a supermarket and you pay for your goods and you walk out again, that the your image isn’t gonna be sort of sitting around, on their systems for, you know, I think it might be might be a number of, you know, of, you know, single digit days, maybe 2 or 2 or 3 days. So that that data doesn’t, doesn’t last, doesn’t last very long. So I think there’s, you know, there’s some good thinking that’s that’s gone in, here. Are you do you feel comfortable about this technology in the in the in the supermarkets, Lance?

Lance Bauerfeind :
Yeah. I’d, I’d I mean, it’s a it’s an interesting thing, isn’t it? That a lot of the technology like this comes in for very good reasons, you know, and in this case, I think, yeah, it’s good reasons. I think you just have to have the protections around there, and quite how you do that. I mean, like you’re saying, if they’re only keeping images for, so long, then great. Probably, I would think if they were holding on to my images, you know, maybe it’s not even their intention, but do they get hacked? I mean, does a whole bunch of other stuff emanate out of it? I I know, first reading this headline, I was, reminded of a number of years ago, seeing, a television article actually about a, a restaurant chain in the US, that as you walked into the door, they they use facial recognition, looked you up on Facebook, and then sent you deals based on like, it might be for, you know, half price coke with your with your, family meal or whatever that might be. And I thought, yeah. Yeah. I I could see, yeah.

Lance Bauerfeind :
You know? I mean, could it go that way with this this sort of thing as well? Perhaps. But, to to me, it sounds like that they are cognizant of of privacy and security. So yeah.

Paul Spain:
Yeah. I think these it’s important to be having the discussions. You know, we we can get pushed into doing things because of, yeah, other societal sort of challenges push us to do things that otherwise we might not be so happy to do. And I was looking at the stats that, Foodstuffs were sharing and saying that this trial follows, 4,790 incidents of retail crime, you know, across the the Foodstuffs North Island stores in the, the the last quarter of 2023, including, 513 breaches of trespass. So that would be an exact situation this technology could assist with. And then it was up 52% on the previous quarter. So when things go wrong, you know, we will often, you know, try and apply new things to solve those issues. Sometimes that can, you know, that can be a a a knee jerk.

Paul Spain:
And, you know, I think, you know, with there’s there’s a whole lot of scenarios we can look at sort of looking looking around the world where, you know, things have been things have been put in place because of certain scenarios, whether it’s, you know, wars or whether it’s, you know, pandemics and so on. Those things, you know, trigger laws that we might not be otherwise comfortable with or trigger the use of technologies that we might, you know, not be, you know, so keen on. On the flip side, there’s a lot of good, you know, uses of of of technology, during the these times as well. And I guess, it’s it’s that challenge again, getting getting it right. So look. I think it’s gonna be interesting to, you know, follow how this progresses. You know, I think, you know, my my experiences with, Foodstuffs North Island. We had Chris Quinn on the on the show who who who heads up, you know, the company.

Paul Spain:
You know, they’re pretty forward looking from a a technology and and innovation, perspective. And I think they’ll be thinking about the same sort of things, we are. But, there might well be some disagreement on whether whether they’re getting this one, right or not. So it might be it might be time for another, chat with with Chris to get his, his viewpoint on this one. All yeah. Did you have anything else on that one?

Lance Bauerfeind :
I was just I was just gonna add add there as well is that, with with implementing any sorts of technologies, you never really know all the consequences and ramifications of what you do. So it is a learning thing. Right? So like you’re saying that maybe with the best intentions that you are implementing this technology, but you don’t fully know how that will wind out. So Yep. Yeah. It’s something you have to be, treat carefully, I think.

Paul Spain:
Yeah. Yep. That’s that’s great point. Now talking about, Rocket Lab, look. It’s encouraging to, you know, to to see them, continuing to to launch. They had a bit of a break there, you know, after they they they had, you know, of of failed, situation, you know, last year. I I forget what the the term is, but a, an explosion, in the air that was was was unplanned. But, you know, they’re they’re certainly back into it.

Paul Spain:
And and this current launch they’ve done is focused, was focused on a a Japanese satellite that, its its purpose is to be collecting data on on space junk, and specifically to, you know, in terms of looking at this this orbital, debris, they’re specifically looking at one of the, one of the the Japanese, rockets. It’s h two a, upper stage that was left in low earth orbit, after the the launch of an observation satellite back in in 2009. So this satellite that’s gone up, ADRIS j, will fly around it and inspect it with, you know, various cameras and, and and sensors. And it it’s gonna take something like 3 to to 6 months apparently to, to complete this mission. And this is interesting because we we keep hearing more about, space debris and and really the the major, risks associated with it. And if we get big items that, that were to, to break up, in space, we could get ourselves into a into a pretty difficult, sit situation where, yeah, it becomes very, very hard to, to to navigate space and to put things up if there’s too much small debris that’s that’s, you know, floating around the place. And, you know, we we look at the International Space Station, the ISS. You know, they, at times, have had to, you know, maneuver it to avoid it, to avoid it being hit.

Paul Spain:
And these bits of space debris go around very, very, you know, extreme speeds that, could could, you know, be quite, quite catastrophic. So, yeah. Good good to see more work going on, in this front, isn’t

Lance Bauerfeind :
it? Yeah. Yeah. I think also, another, another, another space, but, in defense, you know, space is becoming another frontier. And a lot of countries now also looking at, a space force as well. So it’d be interesting that it will only get busier up there, I think. So, having a having a good mechanism or good controls on, how this area is managed, then, I I think it’s just a necessity.

Paul Spain:
Yeah. Look. And, you know, the recognition of of how things are moving in that area that we we now have a, you know, a space minister, and and the honorable Judith Judith Collins. And so, yeah, these these things are obviously coming more and more onto, you know, onto the radar for for for government, and for and for business. Now we’re not far off from this, phone ban, coming into place in in schools. Some schools have have already got, have already got these these things in in place, and that’s certainly something that that, you know, parents have already, got used to. My son, he’s allowed to take his phone to school, but, basically, he can use it before or after school. So if he’s, chasing up and wondering whether he’s getting picked up after school, things like that, he can use it, but not not during the, the school day.

Paul Spain:
And we see the Ministry of Education have, you know, put out a a a bunch of information around that. Basically, schools have to get their rules, in place, no later than, I think the beginning of of, term 2. And so, really, they they are, in many cases, getting started now if they didn’t already, have have a policy. I was pleased to see, that that there are there is some, you know, flexibility, around this policy. So if a phone is is really needed for, you know, specific health reasons, like monitoring insulin labels, then, you know, then then that’s okay. If a phone is needed for a a student, you know, to help them from a a disability or or, you know, learning perspective, then, that that gets the tick. And even students can require students to to use their funds for, you know, a specific, yes, a class assignment or or some other, some other task. And and the principal also has, you know, an ability to, you know, override the rules for, special circumstances.

Paul Spain:
So it’s not a completely, you know, a a complete ban. It’s not it’s not far off it. I I guess one of the one of the things that stands out for me is as we’ve had a lot of issues with with social media platforms, you know, youngsters sort of getting bullied through, through, you know, some some of these applications and even even just sort of text messages and things floating around, the school. And and those things will will continue to be an issue because they can happen, you know, obviously, outside of outside of, you know, school hours and so on. I do think there’s a lot more awareness of it, now, but maybe it turns the dial, down a little bit on some of those issues. You know, the the fact that, the use of of, these devices is, is blocked in schools. How how do you feel about it, Lance?

Lance Bauerfeind :
Well, thankfully, I think I’m a little bit older. All my kids are growing up. So, but, I must say that our children still went to school, and we did what we had, what actually was our family phone, mobile phone. So that necessarily went to the elders so that if they did need to contact us or anything like that, But normally, reminding us to get picked up was a was a classic because there was the odd time when they were forgotten. So, that’s probably a testament to to our parenting abilities. But, yeah, I I I think they’re good. They’re good for a purpose. They’re like anything, you know, they can be abused.

Lance Bauerfeind :
It’s like a knife. You could butter bread or you can cut your finger or, you know, whatever. So, I think having having a device is a good thing. It’s just about managing that right, you know, and like you’re saying for the cyberbullying, that that type of thing, of course, that’s, that needs to be stopped full stop. You know?

Paul Spain:
Yeah. And that that is pretty hard to manage. I think there’s a a fair level of, you know, responsibility on the social media platforms, than them themselves. And, you know, there there has certainly been a targeting, of of younger people by, you know, by some of these platforms and and often content, that’s delivered to them through the algorithms. That’s, that’s not not healthy, shall we say. So, you know, that’s something that really moves into the parenting realm of of how do you manage and deal with these things. And and not not not everyone is gonna know how to do that. So, the the reality that the social media platforms, you know, to to a reasonably large degree, I would say, don’t care, is something that we we need to we need to be aware of and and to think about it.

Paul Spain:
But, being able to, you know, manage manage those things, as parents isn’t isn’t necessarily the easiest, thing to attend to.

Lance Bauerfeind :
No. That’s right. And, and I think, Paul, sorry, just quickly. I was just, a couple of years ago, I was at the phys at the chiropractor, actually. And, they were checking me over and checked my neck, and they were saying, oh, your neck is nice and straight, you know. I go, no. As in everybody’s, and and, in fact, what they’re saying now is that more and more now, it’s kind of like, the younger kids and younger generation that are on their phones all the time. They get in a in the neck from looking down at their devices.

Lance Bauerfeind :
So, maybe being able to, cover that is a good thing in itself anyway.

Paul Spain:
Yeah. Oh, that’s I hadn’t, yeah, I hadn’t heard

Lance Bauerfeind :
Yeah.

Paul Spain:
Hadn’t heard that. So, yeah, that’s that’s probably a, a a a tip that parents will find useful, when negotiating with youngsters is another reason why they should put phones down. And for those of us that maybe sometimes are, are a bit older and are using our phones too often too. So, Yeah. Now infotech.co.nz, this is a URL I’ve I’ve typed into my browser many times, over, I don’t know, multiple decades. This went to what, I guess, sort of started out as a, I think it was a a weekly, news from, what it what is now, stuff was Fairfax back in the day. It was an insert into some, you know, newspapers, but it was the the tech section, you know, in recent years for stuff.co.nz. And, I’ve typed it in recently and found it just went to stuffdot co.nz homepage.

Paul Spain:
And I was, a little bit mortified. So, yep. This goes the end of another, tech publication, eve even just a view on on tech, from Stuff Has Gone, and and that’s because they no longer have a tech page, and they’re not really covering, tick anymore. I guess you could go into all sorts of discussion and wild ticks and everything, so maybe you don’t need to break it out and and so on. But, yeah, I think it’s it’s, it’s a little bit of a loss, but, you know, probably a flexion, that that they really weren’t doing much on that front, in in recent years, but I would you know, I’d still go to, to that old favorite, URL and and and, you know, find some interesting stories from time to time. So, yeah, there’s probably quite a list if we look back over the years of the the tech media, that has has disappeared in New Zealand from the likes of bits and bytes and, you know, computer world. And, yeah, this is is, I guess, just a a final, nail, in the in the coffin for, that infotech, type coverage

Lance Bauerfeind :
Mhmm.

Paul Spain:
From from stuff, into sort of some of the global, global topics. Air Canada got themselves into, into a spot of bother, recently. So what they had done was decided, hey. We can, we can, outsource, a bit more of our customer service by using an AI, chatbot, and they put this up on their website. And in in this particular case that’s, that it’s gone, through the courts, the, the chatbot, obviously, drawing on some of their information, but, presumably a bit of, hallucination, indicated to a customer who’d gone to their website, you know, what what, what their options were in terms of a bereavement situation and, and Air Canada’s travel policy. The chatbot got it wrong. And so, this person sort of went ahead thinking that they could, they could buy travel and and get a refund or, you know, partial refund, later. However, the advice from the chatbot was actually, I guess, rubbish.

Paul Spain:
So there’s a there’s a, I guess, a bit of a warning here, isn’t there, in terms of, you know, how organizations leverage, you know, technology? And and, look, often there is a benefit from, you know, jumping in and trying things out, seeing how they how they work, but you also need to balance that up with with the risks

Lance Bauerfeind :
and,

Paul Spain:
and wrap the appropriate sort of, you know, guidance around its use. And and it looks like Air Canada, you know, jumped in here, you know, to maybe too quick without figuring it out, without doing appropriate testing in house. And and I think they’ve actually, you know, disabled their chatbot at at this time. They’ve taken a bit of bad press, and, I mean, it hasn’t cost them a large amount of money in the scheme of it. But, you know, it doesn’t doesn’t look good when you you can’t, trust a communication with with your airline.

Lance Bauerfeind :
Yeah. Well, when I heard that story, it immediately came to mind. Yeah. There’s there’s a difference between being cutting edge and the bleeding edge.

Paul Spain:
Yes.

Lance Bauerfeind :
And, I think it kind of jumped straight to bleeding edge And, you know, you don’t, in my view, you don’t need to necessarily look at technology in a way to augment human performance. It doesn’t need to replace. I think as we see here, if you jump in too fast, too early, it can have painful results.

Paul Spain:
Yes. Certainly, certainly that was the case this time around. Now we we’re gonna, delve shortly into sort of VR and AR and, Apple Vision Pro spatial, computing. But, one of the things I I came across a couple of weeks ago was some some coverage, around, what was referred to as OnlyFAKE and a site basically where where, you know, AI neural networks is able to churn out, fake IDs. And so this is sort of a I guess a a little bit of an insight into, the the darker use of AI. Right? So there’s lots of, you know, great, good, positive uses of AI. Then there’s a kind of in between one slight what we’ve just heard where, you know, the the, the chatbot was we are probably helpful to a whole bunch of customers, but when it when it gets it wrong, that’s, that’s it’s not not not helpful to anyone. And then you get these these other uses where, you know, people are using AI, for, you know, criminal, intent.

Paul Spain:
And so, yeah, being able to go to where it will just generate you a, an ID, you know, a passport driver’s license type, type ID that you can then use to, to go online and and support doing, you know, maybe illicit transactions or, you know, maybe you’re trying to, be anonymous where where the law would say that, that you can’t be, as as an interesting use case. And I think we’re gonna see a lot more of these, these situations. You know, one thing we probably haven’t seen a lot of yet, but it it it it seemed really obvious as the, sort of phishing emails and and spear phishing type emails where, you know, AI gets used on mass to, to send, you know, fake emails that actually draw on a whole lot of data that’s around the the Internet or or in some some data source and, you know, makes an email, from an an automated source appear, appear very real. Is it is this is something, that that worries you about AI, Lance?

Lance Bauerfeind :
Yeah. I thought I think, right, I would say, most people are at home, you know, are being fished and, people trying to grab my ID and and so on and so forth. And you’re really the the only thing around AI or any technology that gets misused, I kind of think the common denominator is unfortunately the human. And I I can only see solutions coming through how we manage the human aspect of it all. Because I think that, right, with AI, the technology is out there and available, and there’s so many different, options and opportunities for, for people, you know, good or bad, that, I don’t have an answer, fully. Yeah. I think I think it is to do around people rather than necessarily trying to, tame the technology in this case. I could be wrong.

Paul Spain:
Yeah. Look. It’s it’s, you know, I think we’re gonna have a a a few years ahead of of interesting challenges in terms of how we work through these things, where where legislation, helps, and, you know, often it can hinder as well, and and, yeah, how you how you give responsibility. But because we we we see a bunch of the AI technology is available in an open source manner, it means, you know, you you can’t necessarily control, what happens, you know, to it. Like, you know, for instance, with my social media platforms, you know you know where they’re headquartered and and, you know, that there’s some jurisdictions that, you know, that they sit in and and some, you know, regulation, around things. But, that’s gonna be very hard, when the technology is is available in an open source, manner. And that, you know, really allows, you know, people to do with the technology, what they like. Now as we sort of start move into sort of talking a little bit about, the AR and VR, but but before we do that, there’s there’s been a bit of coverage around, Brilliant Labs and, and their their frame, glasses that, is is quite interesting.

Paul Spain:
You know, if you if you look at the, the the coverage, online, they seem to have some, you know, some quite nice looking, what they’re calling, AI glasses, frame. And what they seem to have, they’re referring to it as integrated multimodal AI assistant. And there’s a if you read some of the some of the stuff that’s been published online, I was reading what VentureBeat, released, and it, it looked like a, a whole lot of spin, to to to be fair. And, you know, they were sort of, you know, talking up, how stylish they looked and, you know, name dropping, you know, all all sorts of, you know, folks from from Steve Jobs to to Gandhi because of the sorta roundness of the the glasses and and and varying other sort of aspects in terms of the technologies they, they they’re using. But the I guess the concept is is maybe quite relevant, today. This idea that you could wear some glasses, that are using the likes of Cheggpt, on an ongoing basis, to maybe answer, you know, questions, to look at you know, say you’re looking at a sign and you’re in you’re in a country where, the signs are in a language that you don’t understand where it can translate those, those signs. And I’ve certainly been in that position, myself in in parts of the world, because got a little camera mounted, you know, right in the in the center of the, the glasses. But from most regards, it does you know, they they just look like a a reasonably, normal, set of glasses.

Paul Spain:
And, you know, I guess there’ll be a few questions I I would have around, you know, when and how the the the functionality turn turns on and off, and how it gets out of the way when when you don’t need it, which, yeah, I would argue you you probably don’t want, this technology, you know, listening and and looking all the all the time. Is this is something that’s that’s caught your attention?

Lance Bauerfeind :
Yeah. I think, like, over the years, we’ve we’ve done a lot of work and with AR, you know, and AR glasses. And, I follow a, an optical engineer, who talks far above my head about technically how difficult AR actually is, especially when you’re wanting to project an image that’s, you know, millimeters away from your from your pupil. Yes. As you’re trying to give it a sense of depth. So for example, if you were in a workshop and you wanted information to appear, linked to, an object that might be 5 meters away or something like that. You know, how do you make that, have that sense of depth and project that depth of that information to that particular item in the workshop. It’s incredibly difficult and that’s why I think we see, you know, with Apple, and for example, with Meta, that this idea of these fully three d, augmented, AR headsets or glasses, some some way off of the technology because they keep pushing back their their delivery dates.

Lance Bauerfeind :
Right? I think.

Paul Spain:
Yeah. Yeah. So you kinda have that option for a vendor to to launch something that that that doesn’t do everything, but is maybe sort of similar to the Google Glass and and sign of old tethers through your phone, and that’s where it can

Lance Bauerfeind :
Yeah.

Paul Spain:
Do things like, you know, interact with with some sort of an AI system, or you get something that’s quite, you know, big and and you know that there’s there’s a lot of years of iteration ahead before it it maybe gets mainstream?

Lance Bauerfeind :
That’s right. And you’ve got to start somewhere. Right? So the idea and that’s essentially, say with Google Glasses, it was video and text, and it might be the weather or an email notification or so on, Mhmm. You know? Just because that’s all durable, you know. It’s it’s more of a simple problem to solve. But, yeah, so I think with with these particular glasses, I think you’re right. I think they it didn’t look to me like there was too much more than what’s already been around and then has has been around for some years.

Paul Spain:
Yeah. Yep. Yeah. And, I mean, I’ve certainly seen them at at the likes of, you know, CES with, you know, Consumer Electronics Show in in Vegas over the years with with varying people Sony and others sort of bringing out different classes that that that do different things. But at at you know, it really tend to be a very small number of vendors, who whose product has sort of, you know, caught caught the attention, you know, of most most media, and they have the potential to gain traction. And I guess this is what you know, that’s brings us to the Apple Vision Pro now. We’re we’re, you know, a few weeks in, since the Apple Vision, you know, pro pro, you know, the 1st kinda early rev you know, reviews and and, and commentary online, and then, you know, yeah, pretty pretty close to 3 weeks, since people have been able to get their hands on them. We started seeing the the, you know, folks posting on, online that they’re returning their Apple Vision, Pro, on on one side.

Paul Spain:
You know, but other people who who are, you know, they’re really pleased to have have the technology. I’m, yeah, I’m I’m really kinda curious what, you know, what what’s your what’s your take on this? Because, you know, Apple are are a company that seem to be able to, you know, always attract a massive amount of attention for their technology. However, there hasn’t, you know, there hasn’t been a a massive amount of of coverage of the Apple Vision Pro in, you know, traditional media. Sure. It’s it’s been there, but maybe not the the sort of, you know, attention that we would be used to for, you know, something that is as completely, you know, fresh or new from, from from Apple. And, yeah, we seem to have quite a range of viewpoints of, you know, people, like, you know, across, the particularly the the US because it’s, it’s it’s not, you know, not broadly available anywhere else unless you jump through, you know, a a lot of hoops or you’re willing to, you know, bring something back from the US. So yeah. And and, yeah, of course, it’s it’s, it’s consumers that Apple, you know, are are the strongest at reaching.

Paul Spain:
But, of course, the the technology’s at a price point where, you know, it maybe, isn’t so much a a consumer player at at this point in time.

Lance Bauerfeind :
Mhmm. Yeah. I think, a small disclaimer here. Company x doesn’t have one just yet, but we are, lining ourselves up to get one. Having, like you, watched a number of different reviews and just keeping abreast of things and also been fortunate enough to know a developer that was on the beta testing team. So, talking to, my developer friend, he thinks that pretty awesome. You know? And, when you look at it, I I think from our from our perspective, if we look at it from a commercial, industrial type of use case rather than a consumer based one. So our view on it would be different to, to a lot of the reviews or the consumer focused reviews because for us, I mean, a lot of the, say, the consumer focused reviews that I’ve seen, they, they would talk about things like, you know, avatars or that this isn’t quite, you know, this isn’t quite good, or I don’t like the way this looks or my eyes that are projected into the headset are lower than they really should be and things like that.

Lance Bauerfeind :
But for us, now for a consumer, that’s important. For for us, it’s not. Because if you if you think about it, a company that would, use this type of technology, in a way, the employees kind of not necessarily forced, but, you know, there is a they kind of have to use it for their for their work. So you have kind of like a a focused or committed audience or committed user base because I would bring about, I would bring about, you know, efficiencies for the company and cost savings and and so on and so forth. So so for us, for the, for the Apple Vision Pro, we think the technology is looking really good. The things that interesting interested me most was, the display quality from what I read. And that’s really important. Look, for example, if you’re creating a VR because it’s VR and mixed reality, of course, having a good quality or the ability to be able to see in the distance with accuracy, you know, is is really dependent upon the quality of your of your display.

Lance Bauerfeind :
So, from what we’ve read is that that the quality is excellent. So for us, that’s a big plus, and so we can use that, for, for our clients who who require that kind of, like, that that degree of resolution, if you like.

Paul Spain:
Yeah. That certainly seems to be, you know, one one of the standout areas. I I don’t know if you saw the, the video which, Mark Zuckerberg, shared online, talking about he tried the the Apple Vision Pro and, you know, base basically, saying that the, that the, medic you know, MediQuest as as a better product, you know, on on, on on all or almost metrics, I think, was,

Lance Bauerfeind :
Yeah. You know, his

Paul Spain:
his comments look looking looking at the quest 3.

Lance Bauerfeind :
Yeah.

Paul Spain:
Would you know, I thought was was very interesting, that that he would, you know, he would, I guess, you know, put him out himself out there and and and try and differentiate between what are 2 sort of very different, you know, products in terms of, certainly the the price points and and sort of some of the quality and so on that, Apple bring to the table. But, you know, from some perspectives, you know, actually, it it it’s it’s important to have that, have that distinction at this point in time because, they’re they’re in many regards, they’re drawing on access to the same sorts of, technologies that are that are available. And, you know, how things play out depends on, you know, how different companies like Meta, and and Apple, invest and and leverage the varying technologies, that are that are available today. And and, you know, I guess, yeah, this technology isn’t super mature yet. So whatever you look at on on these things, you will you will see a whole, you know, a whole bunch of, shortcomings, but also a lot of potential for what will what will come, you know, in the future. Mhmm.

Lance Bauerfeind :
And and, of course, commercially too, I think. It’s not necessarily just about the device as well. I mean, if you look at Meta, say we’re working with, government organizations and so on and so forth, you know, there is that perceived thing about meta around data. And so there are stipulations around not using or not having data stored on meta servers and so on and so forth. Even though they have now released a business plan, it is still kind of this thing, handing over meter, though, as Mark Zuckerberg might said, might think his, his headset is the best. That isn’t especially in the commercial space, that isn’t always the major issue, you know, and that, organizations will accept lower quality in certain things to ensure that their their data is their data.

Paul Spain:
Yeah. I I agree. And, look, I you know, I think, you know, Zuckerberg and and and Meta, you know, have have proven themselves to be untrustworthy in in in numerous regards. And, you know, an organization would be unwise, to be putting too much trust in in meta. And, I mean, just so many situations, that that I’ve come across or have been shared with me, you know, whether it’s accounts that have been hacked, whether, you know, customers that may be spending 1,000 of dollars a month with them, in advertising, an account gets compromised, and and, you know, just how shocking, that they’ve been at at helping people out. You know, myself, I I have an Instagram account with a very, you know, small following, you know, sub 1,000, followers, and it’s on a regular basis, over the last sort of, you know, 12, 18 months. I’ve seen, you know, someone effectively duplicate that account, then use fake accounts to build a follower, a following that that looks very similar, and then, you know, try and pull people in to follow and start direct messaging them with scams. And even going through, you know, media media channels, I haven’t had satisfaction with, you know, with getting them to, to, you know, address that and to put a stop to it in a timely manner.

Paul Spain:
It seems like the sort of thing that wouldn’t be that hard to do when someone, you know, basically duplicates your, you you know, your, your bio, duplicates your photo, and and then, you know, locks an account in a in a particular manner. It seems like a pretty, pretty clear and and and common, pattern, but, you know, there we go. So, yeah, I think that’s that’s a that’s a huge point. And, look, you know, Apple have proven themselves to be, you know, trustworthy from a business perspective, and from a data, you know, privacy perspective. You know, streets and streets are ahead of, meter. And, you know, that’s it’s a a badge that they, you know, I guess, that they they wear that you they can be trusted from that perspective.

Lance Bauerfeind :
Yeah. And also, Paul, to to get back to, your original comments around, you know, with with Apple, with the with the VisionPRO, that I think that their philosophy, and this isn’t just entirely my opinion, I’ve spoken to some others that tend to agree, but their philosophy is around using industry, for example, to help them develop the product and work it down towards consumers. And I think it’s solely around, you know, there are things like you are saying that are far from a finished product and being able to test that and use that and develop it with companies, with organizations that will have committed users, seem to be like actually, quite a good way of looking at it and doing it because the cost of initially is gonna be so high. They know that, you know, they’re not gonna be able to sell 1,000,000 straight away as they would an iPhone. So how how do you actually get your product out there? Start to get people used to it, seeing that, and be able to develop it. Because like you say, for 3 a half 1000 US, you know, it’s not really priced as a consumer product from from my perspective. And and, of course, technologically, you know, people there’s, you’re saying a lot of people returning that because they’re talking about VR sickness and and and other things. Or they’re expecting just way too much from, the technology itself.

Lance Bauerfeind :
I was reading things, you know, whether talking about if you move your head really fast, then you’re going to have motion blur issues with the cameras and and and that sort of thing. And you’re thinking with with us, we if we understand that constraint, then we can develop, training and experience and simulations to work around that, you know. So that doesn’t necessarily become an issue. But from a consumer perspective, I want to just move on. It’s supposed to, you know, what will work for me, and it will just help me with everything, and there’s gonna be no real, major issues. So that, you know, it gives me a better a better experience, but especially at this point, it doesn’t always work that way.

Paul Spain:
Mhmm. And, you know, one aspect I’m always looking at technology from is how can this, you know, help New Zealand organizations? You know, and personally with my own business, you know, Gorilla, we’re looking at those sort of small to medium organizations. So, I’m looking at this as with every technology through a lens of, oh, you know, how how could we apply, this? How, you know, how could how could it help? And, you know, it it probably yeah. It seems to me at this stage, it’s it’s, you know, probably not, mature enough for for most organizations, but there will be some. I remember a conversation I had with, someone that was a a kitchen, designer and and manufacturer, some years ago. It was maybe best part of a decade ago, now. And, yeah, they they would sort of, you know, quite a quite a small outfit. And, you know, we’re talking around that that they didn’t have the the budgets or or necessarily even the space to build up all these kitchens.

Paul Spain:
But they had built some incredible, you know, high end kitchens and, you know, varying, you know, private properties with a rich listers or or or what have you. You know, and and, you know, part of my commentary to them was, well, you know, can you can you get permission as you build these things to get a three d capture, and to at least show people in in a in a, you know, in a VR, headset? So that, you know, there will be there will be use cases, but probably, you know, not necessarily there for for, you know, every organization, just yet. And in terms of how it plays out longer term, you know, what what are your thoughts? As as as this type of technology something that is is very much, here to stay or as a as quite a mainstream thing over time, or will it always be sort of something at the fringes? Or do we expect in 10 years’ time when you jump on a plane, everyone’s gonna throw on their headset, and be, you know, interacting with friends around the world while they’re on their plane or just watching a movie. And, you know, we we don’t we don’t need, any anything else while we’re while we’re while we’re on the plane and and and so on. Do you have a kind of, your personal personal thoughts on where all this lands?

Lance Bauerfeind :
Yeah. I think, like, personally, I I know, like, you know, there are things like IR contact lenses. I think Mojo is is one that comes to mind. So, and I think there’s more traction there. I think, for the consumer for the for the consumer base, it needs to be less of a headset device that sits on my head, rather than something that can integrate with the way that I work and whether that is an earpiece or contact lenses, whatever that is, something quite miniature that, you know, doesn’t become, I guess a major thing that you, that you need to put on and, it would cut you off from the environment and so on. But I think also, the thing that was that was seen with the industry now is with the likes of Apple coming out with the Vision Pro and also, of course, Meta had the Quest three. And, HTC, the Vive Elite XR. Those those headsets, bringing us into the mixed reality realm, whereas before that wasn’t I mean, originally, a number of years ago, and it’s still around to a certain degree, was the HoloLens.

Lance Bauerfeind :
Yes. But now it seems to have moved on a lot more. And I think, we’re talking about VR where you’re cut off from your environment with mixed reality. For example, if you are doing a training on a car engine, you could still be in your office or in your room, Still see your room, but have the model of the of the car engine appear in front of you. You can break it apart and you can, you know, go through the necessary training. I think that’s actually, where we’re going to see a big push and and to where the industry will go towards. I think the mixed reality is, I find it really good to use. I I think there’s a lot of benefits and a lot of pluses for it.

Lance Bauerfeind :
So that’s kind of looking at the industry. I think that’s where we’ll go. I think for, for training and and simulation, and I think, for consumers, I think before there’s a bigger uptake, I do think that it needs to be a more manageable device that’s more integrated in with the person rather than, something that gets stuck onto them.

Paul Spain:
Mhmm. Yeah. I remember the time that I beat, Elon Musk to Mars, and, I walked around on, on Mars in, augmented reality with the, Microsoft, HoloLens, and, Buzz Aldrin was, was there sort of, you know, commentating and and and so on. Yep. So, yeah, they can look. They can, you know, they can be something sort of exciting around around, the technology. And, you know, for me, that that was quite a memorable, experience, and, you know, I guess partly because of, you know, it was quite, quite new, new, you know, technology at the time. But, yeah, there is that opportunity to create experiences that you’re you’re not gonna have in quite the same way, with, you know, within any other tech and and and screens.

Paul Spain:
So, yeah, really interested to see, how it plays out. It’s it’s been great to, great to have you on the show. Lance, thanks, thanks thanks very much for, for joining us. Anything else you wanted to sort of add before, before I ask you the big question, around, around, you know, whether the Apple, vision vision plot the Apple Vision Pro is, you know, is a is a hit or a a miss or a, you know, what’s what else would you like to share?

Lance Bauerfeind :
So I’ll I’ll answer that. I I’ve nothing further to add. Is it a hit or a miss? I actually think it’s a hit. Obviously, I I and I know there’s a lot of people going in a certain mess that smiles away and that sort of thing. But actually from, like I say, from Company-X’s perspective, we see it’s another device that offers another set of functionality and advantages that can help us to, you know, provide, great solutions for for clients. So I think it’s a hit.

Paul Spain:
And and, look, I you know, I think it’s gonna take a little bit of time for us to, you know, see how how it gets leveraged. But just because of that cut through that, that Apple has, we you know, we’ve had iterations of other technologies before that I think we’re gonna see a bunch of new stuff that will will land on the Apple Vision Pro, that we haven’t seen, you know, software vendors that have probably had the capability to do something with the other technologies. But because of the cut through that that Apple brings, we will see a a level of investment, that maybe we haven’t seen in the past. So, yeah, I think we’ll we’ll we will see some pretty interesting things over, you know, over the over the coming period. And, of course, when it comes to Apple, we know they like to kinda iterate and and release, new versions. Sometimes they’ve been a bit slow with some of their Macs where they’ve left it left it too long. Other devices, it kind of feels at times like, like they’re like they’re too regular. But I I imagine they’re gonna find some sort of a sweet spot in the middle.

Paul Spain:
And something that it hasn’t been much talk of is this is called the Apple Vision Pro. So, you know, the my gut feel is there’s gonna be an Apple Vision without the Pro, at some point as well, you know, lower price point type thing. And, and, you know, we’ll we’ll have, you know, we’ll we’ll just have to watch and, you know, see see how these things, play out. But yeah. Now a big thank you, of course, to, to everyone for for for listening in, to the New Zealand Tip Podcast. Of course, a a big thank you to those that help us keep, New Zealand Tip Podcast operating, week to week. So thank you to Gorilla Technology, HP Spark 2degrees, and OneNZ. And, yeah, huge thank you, Lance, for, for for joining us on the show, and and to, get Company-X for, giving you a bit of, time to, to to share with us.

Lance Bauerfeind :
My pleasure, and thanks very much for having me, Paul.

Paul Spain:
My my pleasure too. And, look. Thanks everyone for listening in. If you’ve been watching the live stream, of course, make sure you, you do, look out whether it’s through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, wherever you listen to podcasts, follow the show on, on those those platforms. And if you’re listening to the audio, then, you know, you can also, find us a video form and and, you know, most weeks with a live stream, on on YouTube, x, Facebook, or by, connecting or following myself, Paul Spain, on LinkedIn where we where we also stream. So thanks everyone, and we’ll look forward to catching up again next week. And, thanks again, Lance. Cheers,