Paul Spain: Hey, folks. Greetings, and welcome along to the New Zealand Tech Podcast. I'm your host, Paul Spain. And today, we're with Julie McMahon from Grok Academy. Welcome along, Julie. Great to have you on the show. Julie McMahon: Thank you for having me along today. Paul Spain: Oh, it's a real privilege to have you here. Maybe before we we delve in, we're gonna, you know, really talk a lot around, show. Digital education, the role of technology and and AI within the education sphere, particularly from a, you know, a school perspective. Show. Be great to hear a little bit about your background, because you've been working in this in this field for, for a long time, and I'm sure, show. Listeners would would be curious to know a little bit about that. Julie McMahon: Yes. So I have actually been in the digital, digital technologies education space show. For over 30 years. Hate to give away my age. The last 20 years Paul Spain: at least 30 then? Julie McMahon: Yeah. I'm at least 30. And, show. The last 20 years has been, over here in Aotearoa, New Zealand. I obviously am North American, and so I was actually involved in the early days in some of the show. 1st telecommunications education networks in the United States and started developing my interest then. Show. 20 years here teaching digital technologies, down in Otupiti, Dunedin, had a faculty of technology. Julie McMahon: Show. And I also worked with Otago University with their master's students as a curriculum lecturer, so helping onboard those that next show. Generation of digital technologies teachers. Throughout my time, I have also served as a president and a committee member of Digital Technologies Teachers show. Which is our subject association and worked on the current curriculum development in the area of digital technologies show. And also the education standards for NCEA in in the area. So I kind of across digital technologies education in Aotearoa show. New Zealand. Julie McMahon: And about a little over a year ago, decided to put those skills, show. To use in a different slightly different direction, and now I'm a lead educator with Grok Academy. And I know we'll go into that a little bit more probably, but we're an show. Education, not for profit in digital technology space. Paul Spain: Yeah. I think it's really exciting, and I'm I'm certainly looking forward to hearing more about that. Maybe just a sort of a, you know, a show. Overview for those that haven't heard of, Grok Academy before, and, you know, what, what Grok Academy's mission is. Julie McMahon: Yeah. Show. So Grok Academy, we're an education not for profit. Our big mission is on bringing digital technologies education show. Out to everybody, equity of access. We really are, focused on making sure we get a diverse range of learners show. Exposed to digital technologies because we need diversity within the workforce. And, we also want to highlight career pathways because show. Julie McMahon: Tech is the foundation, for every other industry, and we want to highlight what those exciting career pathways are. Show. Grok is a non for profit based in Australia, and we have some funding, generous funding through Wisetech Global, show. And we're able to, provide our resources free in Australia and Aotearoa, New Zealand Yeah. Starting That's really cool. 2024. So we'll show. Talk about that. Paul Spain: We're right into it. Yeah. Oh, fantastic. Well, big thank you, of course, to our show partners, to 1 NZ, 2 Degrees, Spark, HP, show. And Gorilla Technology for, their support of the show. But let's jump in. I'm keen to hear how show. How you look at the the landscape when we talk about technology in school or or digital technologies, and maybe show. Paul Spain: You can tell listeners why you use the term digital technologies, you know, how how we would look at that differently from information technology or show. Other, titles within the education sector and, you know, your thoughts on on the current landscape in New Zealand. Show. Julie McMahon: So that's a a great question because to the general public, digital technologies, digital literacy, show. Digital citizenship, they all kind of bundle together, and there isn't a lot of differentiation. And also, we hear the term digital native show. Quite a bit. Yes. Yes. I thought I would unpack that and how it really is Paul Spain: impacting schools. Julie McMahon: That'll be great. So, one of the things we assume because show. Young people and even young teachers coming into the field. They've grown up with devices, with the Internet, social media, show. That they're digital natives. But just because they're digital natives and they're okay with using apps and they're quite proficient in it, show. They really, their digital literacy skills, they haven't been honed in on that because they haven't been really shown show. How do we, you know, save files? Things get magically saved into the cloud. Julie McMahon: How do we, you know, structure documents, show. Spreadsheets, all of those things that make us digital literate and, able to sort of critically evaluate what's the best tool for the job. Yeah. Paul Spain: There can be a lot of variation out there in terms of, you know, experience and and knowledge and and expertise. And and when I think back show to, teaching at at what is now Auckland University of Technology. And and, actually, I was a teenager when I was teaching there show and, you know, doing night classes and the like. And, you know, at that point, technology was, show. You know, was new. We didn't come in with so many assumptions. So we were teaching people, you know, file formats to save and where to save things and so on. But show. Paul Spain: These are the sorts of things now that, it's often assumed that everybody, knows, but, of course, there are there are those variances in terms of knowledge. Julie McMahon: Show. Exactly. And so that's the digital literacy aspect, and those are the things that, do need a coordinated approach show. And taught across the curriculum, so they're really important, for example, in maths, doing spreadsheets and graphing or maybe in geography show. And in, you know, our our literacy subjects, really learning how to format a document, etcetera. And within digital technologies, which I'll explain in a minute, show. How to save files, how to in the correct format so that we can design a web page and have the correct linking, etcetera. But then show. Julie McMahon: With within the curriculum, we have a subject called digital technologies. And digital technologies is really about those underlying show. Computer science concepts that are underpin our current AI or the apps that are developed, show. The logical thinking that goes into the computational thinking, also, programming show. And also design thinking, how do we design an app so that it's fit for purpose and that it's actually solving a problem? Show. So all of those things are part of the digital technologies curriculum and are more aimed at students really understanding how things happen under the hood. So, show. A, they're more informed for life, but also so that they're prepared to be our next generation of the developers of the next show. Julie McMahon: Cool app or the next, evolution of AI. And so I guess there's a a show. Disjunct between what's been actually taught, what's been expected to be taught in the in the classroom. Show. Paul Spain: Yeah. And and getting back to your, you know, your point earlier around making sure that that everyone has this you know, has the opportunity to, to learn. Show. I I think in the current age, the current time we're in, 100%, everybody that goes, you know, that goes through the education show. Should be learning, and I don't know where you draw the line as to as to what's an appropriate level, but there should be a a reasonably kinda show. High bar for for what is considered the basics, you know, in the same way we're seeing the government sort of want to make sure that people, show. You know, understand how to read and write and and and do maths and so on up to to a particular, you know, level. Show. Paul Spain: We should be doing the same surely on a technology front. It's a it's a digital world now. And without that, we really disadvantage people. Julie McMahon: Show. That's exactly the the digital technologies curriculum was put into place up through our year 10 learners show. And so that they have that foundation in in coding, in the computational thinking to make some appropriate choices. Once they go on to those higher levels like NCA, show. They can start making choices. And we've especially found with, females with, show. People who are maybe gender diverse or from a minority, they don't see themselves in tech show. Roles. Julie McMahon: And if they don't see themselves as being successful in it or see, a pathway show. Early on, they tend to opt out and think this isn't for me. And it's really important that we do expose students show. By year 7 at the latest, and especially in that kind of year 6 to 10, so that they know that show. Opportunities exist. And one of my favorite phrases that I learned at a, actually, Google Education Summit years ago was CS plus x. Show. And it's kind of computer science plus the x factor plus your passion. Julie McMahon: So, if you are, you know, agriculture, if it's show. Sports, if it's medicine, if it's business, whatever it is, we need technology underpins that today. So it's, show. I guess providing students with insights into doing digital technologies as a career is not sitting behind a screen all day just writing code. It's show. Actually working with that area, your passion, your area of passion, and putting those things together to develop, you know, something show. Helpful. Useful. Paul Spain: Yeah. Yep. 100%. I mean, what I would often argue is doesn't matter what, you know, what field somebody's going into, show. Education, you know, sports, and and whatever, you know, career paths. It might be a, show. You know, a world of gas for the whatever. You know, the the stronger that technological, you know, learning up show. Paul Spain: Front, then the more successful you're likely to to be in your given field. And as the world becomes more and more digital, show. You know, you've become more valuable within your given, your workplace if you've done those things. So, show. Yeah. That that really, resonates with me. So talk to me around, you know, the current things that you see when we we look at there being show. A shortage often of of teachers. Paul Spain: You know, it it it makes me wonder, you know, shuttle intelligence. What's the role of technology to do some of the lifting for us? I'd look back and maybe it's show. I don't know. To the the last time, the national government were in, so maybe sort of 7 years or so, show. Back. I remember there being an announcement around online, learning, and I was actually in the newsroom at, show. What is TV 3? Was TV 3 and MediaWorks at at that point. And, one of the, you know, well known journalists show. Paul Spain: Sort of and presenters, you know, saying to me how shocked they were and how crazy it was. And show. In my case, I shared with them my experience with what used to be called correspondence school and and having done some remote learning, show. Prior to and while my family was traveling overseas and how that worked out, you know, how that was absolutely brilliant, in my case. And I've, show. You know, heard heard other positive sort of stories around that sort of remote, learning. And so I was able to sort of share that, show. And I'm not quite sure what's kinda what happened with that with government, changes and so on. Paul Spain: But, when I look at, show. Yeah. Grok Academy and and a lot of things going on. You know, online learning is is a, you know, is an important part of the picture, isn't it? Julie McMahon: Show. So there are a couple of things. Yes. We are short of teachers, full stop, and we are show. Desperately short of digital technologies teachers. I'll in my own personal opinion and from being in the university system is that show. We ask teachers to get an undergrad in computer science or information science and then go and do a master's in education to go back into the classroom. And show. Julie McMahon: Usually because we need so many tech workers there, they're out and they have a job. And so we're we aren't getting very many show. Digital technologies, teachers coming into the classroom. So that is one issue. It's one issue that Grok Academy and show. Other online learning platforms we're trying to solve, support teachers to have an online platform that provides, show. You know, a structured learning program guides the students through, and then they can actually upskill themselves as well. Show. Julie McMahon: One of the things I think we've all experienced through COVID, and I saw a transformation when I was in you know, during COVID show. With other teachers who weren't digital technologies teachers, they suddenly learned how to maybe put things online and show. And teach in a different way. So that was actually quite beneficial. That that part, that was one of the benefits to COVID. And show. Just like we have hybrid workers now that work partially from home, partially in the office, we can see that we can engage students in different ways. Show. Julie McMahon: We're never going to replace, I don't think, that face to face interaction. I hope. No. It's it's the you know, show. Students do like the relationship the relationship for with the teacher and supporting them through. But if we have resources that are online that are quality, show. Then we're supporting the teachers because they are they're busy with the so many things. There are so many curriculum requirements. Julie McMahon: Show. So I guess that's the landscape right now. Unfortunately, there are show. Pros you know, I guess, good and bad. EdTech examples out there, some are just sort of drill and kill, and that's just replacing, show. I guess a a worksheet, and it's an online worksheet. But we have this opportunity now, and I do see it as an opportunity with AI. Show. Julie McMahon: We can actually build into EdTech platforms ways to give more personalized content show. 2 students. So you might have some sort of online pre assessment, and you and I might go down show. Totally different pathways depending on where we are. You might get different feedback, and you might be challenged. I might be put show. Down and do some more, I guess, remediation problems or get extra support, and teachers don't often have that time. We're show. Julie McMahon: Supposed to be differentiating in the classroom Yes. But it's challenging. So structured AI used that way is actually going to be probably show. A real game changer. Different platforms are, are developing it. That's what one of our things with our next generation of Grok is building show. That into our platform so that we are customizing the experience for learners and for teachers. Paul Spain: Yeah. Show. Yeah. I'm really fascinated how that could play out. You know, when I I think of, you know, my memory, it's far from, you know, perfect. And show. I think of, you know, different people that I work with. You know, some of them are, you know, are much better at perceiving, you know, certain little things than than others. Paul Spain: And, show. I can imagine a a scenario in a classroom, and maybe it sort of sounds a bit spooky, but, you know, we you've got, you've got show. The content being kinda temporarily recorded and then an AI, you know, building up show. Some some knowledge around each individual. Oh, this person, you know, this youngster loves playing cricket. They're a little bit more, show. Leaning to, to be distracted and to focus on the subject at hand. They love their maths, and they're really good at it. Paul Spain: Show. They don't do so much on the this and that front and so on and being able to build up those sort of profiles, you know, somewhat somewhat automatically. And I can imagine that being actually really helpful for, you know, for a teacher. And then as assignments and things are being put together that show. The AI would, you know, would play into what you were talking about in terms of the personalization and and so on. Show. How ready do you think we are for these sorts of changes? Because, you know, as soon as you incorporate, show. Yeah. Paul Spain: For instance, with that example, you've you've gotta have some sort of AI that's recording or or listening in for a period of time. Show. And and, you know, you might automatically delete the the the recordings or what have you, show. But there's there's discomfort because this is a change, to what we know and the and the world we know. Show. Julie McMahon: Yes. It it is uncomfortable, and I think we all would probably prefer to do something how we've show. Always done it. Deliver a lesson. Deliver an assessment task. How we've done it before, we know it works. But we also know that show. Things like Chat GPT, these large language models, they have changed the landscape, and they're here. Julie McMahon: And so show. That is a it's a challenge, but it's something that needs to be a focus for educators because we need to show. Maybe change how we think about doing assessment, not giving things that are just, show. You know, getting getting the correct answer because maybe, you know, a large language model AI can spit out a correct answer. So it's thinking about show. How do we use that as a as a coach? How do we use it actually to help us as teachers, you know, to create maybe some problem prompts, some writing prompts, show. Lesson plans. So it actually we see it as that positive. Julie McMahon: What is positive as far as AI? But just to say, well, show. I'm not ready for it. It's it's here. I do know, big organizations, Code .org, for example, Khan Academy, Grok show. Academy, we're on, the the sort of advisory boards and those things. How can we support educators show. In, using AI in in the classroom. So I think that that's where the focus needs to be is how do we how do we use it productively instead of just saying, oh, I I don't wanna know about it or we should just ban it because if you ban things, people find a way around them. Julie McMahon: But how can we find the the positive show. And and using those things in the class in the classroom. Paul Spain: Yeah. And there's a there's a balancing act, banning things and show. Allowing them do you give chat GPT at at any level to to students at any age? Because it sorta show. It probably opens you up to all sorts on on the net. And and I guess it's probably similar challenge with what, you know, what we've seen with the current government in terms of show. Banning smartphones, I think yeah. Well, there's one school of thought as, yeah, no. You shouldn't ban things at all. Paul Spain: On the flip side, we've got things like network for learning, show. It's being used by a lot of schools to, you know, manage and give a access to appropriate online access with some show. Some boundaries around it into the school. And if you got a smartphone, you know, mobile connection, you basically bypass whatever our school's tried to put in show. In place using using those techniques. And we see some of the fallout from that with nude pictures that get sort of passed around and can cause a show. A lot of harm and so on, but, of course, you can never completely control these things because as soon as school's over for the day, those sort of boundaries all fall away. Show. Paul Spain: So these aren't easy decisions to make, are they? Julie McMahon: They they aren't. And I do think when you try to ban technologies in schools, it's show. Almost like students want to use. I remember in the old days of brick cell phone when we Yeah. Yeah. Said you couldn't have it, they figure out how to put their phone in their blazer pocket show. Can still be texting with their son, or if you don't have a cell phone, but you've got your, you know, BYOD device, you can still use a messaging app to Link to show. To link, to communicate. Julie McMahon: So I think there are challenges to banning. It's usually moves, show. Just moves those sort of communication things to other areas. I know chat GPT really shouldn't be actually legally, I think, used for people under 17 show. Years of age. So I think it's using AI tools that are specific for education. Again, like things that might show. The teacher can monitor, and it's giving them some, like, writing prompts and being their coach. Paul Spain: So does that mean you should be banning the chat GPT And giving them an an alternative at that point, Julie McMahon: or do Paul Spain: you do you not block it? Julie McMahon: I think it is showing alternatives. Paul Spain: Mhmm. Julie McMahon: Maybe, show. I think in schools, and I don't actually have the legality on this, but I believe in schools, show. It shouldn't be allowed for access for people under a certain Paul Spain: age. Julie McMahon: So schools might have a legal obligation around that, but I haven't checked. Show. Paul Spain: I've I've Julie McMahon: Yeah. Read that. Yeah. I haven't checked the New Zealand law on that. So I think it's providing it's providing show. Alternatives, and it's also those discussions. The other interesting thing around that is that so if you are, show. I guess giving homework or tasks that students can do at home where the it's open slather access to things like ChetGPT. Paul Spain: Sure. Julie McMahon: Show. So that makes an inequity right there because students who have Internet access and have access at home to show. To those, they can just whip through maybe their their homework, whereas students who don't aren't having that same access. And it's show. Kind of the same thing though that's always been with access to Internet or access to parents who are guiding you through your homework or an older brother or or sister. So, show. I think having having assignments or homework assignments show. That make it really easy to just splat out some answers on chat GPT. Julie McMahon: That's where we have to rethink because the the motivation to use those things will go away if we show. If we're not making it, a reward for going and getting your homework done very quickly show. On that. And my other, I guess, big thing that as part of digital technologies, the computer science, show. We should actually be looking at what are the foundations for AI, how does it actually work, what are the principles, show. And and getting students to actually think about the pros and cons. Like, how is how, is AI actually helping us to show. Diagnose, you know, cancers and things like that. Julie McMahon: What are those benefits? How is AI being used to sort of form our show. Feeds and maybe have biases and manipulators. I think those are the more important conversations to have in schools rather than ban, not ban. It's, show. That's Paul Spain: great. Yeah. I like that. Yeah. So it's so important that we, yeah, help. And it's not it's not just youngsters, right, help all of us, show. You know, better understand some of these these realities and and and challenges. Now yeah. Paul Spain: When I when I think around, show. AI. One of the early discussions, which I haven't heard much on, yeah, probably for at least 6 months, show. One of the early discussions, you know, was very much sort of leaning towards banning and then very quickly leaning towards using show. Technology to detect whether students were maybe handing in assignments that have been generated, show. With AI. And, of course, there's variations on that. You know, certainly at, you know, at a university level, around show. Paul Spain: Individuals that might kinda outsource the the production of an assignment. Somebody might be somebody else, yeah, elsewhere in the world and and so on. Show. Now before we before we jumped in, one of the things that you mentioned that is, as a as a, you know, as a technique show. As, for instance, if if a student's working, in in, you know, platform Google or or Microsoft with docs, show. And you've got track changes on, then you can sort of see when maybe a whole big block of text, has show. Being dropped in versus it being entered over a period of time. So there are there are probably elements like that that that, show. Paul Spain: You know? And there's always ways around them, of course, that could be part of the picture. How do you how do you look at, show. Look at those things and and how much could AI technology maybe maybe help us there. If if an AI, for instance, show. Knows Paul Spain's personal writing style, how long I take to write things, the language I use, show. And then it compares it with something that's been, you know, generated, online. And, again, you can train your your online version to, show. To be very much, like your yourself. Paul Spain: Are those are those things helpful? Are they necessary? Show. Or is it a a not a just a matter of coming up with a range of of different types of assignments and and and tasks, show, to encourage learning. Julie McMahon: I actually had a a good conversation about this recently. So, show. Yes. Those techniques that teachers have been using actually even before, you know, the chat GPT large language models, show. Putting having students use, you know, Microsoft online docs or Google Docs with the revision mode on with the track changes on so that they could show. See when things were maybe just copied and pasted from the Internet. So those techniques are still going to come into play with things like Chet GPT. Show. Julie McMahon: Different from university level, but high school, you know, intermediate, you usually know your students show. Quite well. You know their writing style. You know their capabilities. And if they've suddenly turned in an online document that's show. Totally different from something that they would ever write in in classroom. You you can pick that up right away. I know at show. Julie McMahon: Universities and high schools throughout New Zealand, we've been using things like Turnitin to detect plagiarism, to detect show. Copies online. So those things are already already in place. And like I said, I know that, show. Different online platforms are actually building in the AI so you can assign students, and they have to do it within this controlled AI platform show. So the teacher can actually see Paul Spain: Yes. Julie McMahon: Their progress through. And and then the program is actually restricted, so it's not giving them the answer. It's guiding them with some, you know, show. Personalized prompts and things like that. So I think those are all really good. I think the danger right now where the technology stands right now in these kind of show. AI detectors is we do know that AI has hallucinize hallucinate. Paul Spain: Show. Hallucinations. Oh my gosh. Julie McMahon: I couldn't say that word. And, you know That Paul Spain: happens to me sometimes. Julie McMahon: You know, has these sort of false positives. Paul Spain: Yes. Julie McMahon: Show. So there's a danger that you turn something in, and an AI detective says it isn't your writing and you and there have been cases of this. Show. Somebody, you know, stood down from school when it actually was their writing. So we have to be very careful that we're not just relying on an AI to check an AI. Show. I think we need some more structure, at least for right now. Paul Spain: Yeah. I don't think you can probably usually do that in a in a manner where you're show. Highly reliant. And I would imagine if you if you've got an AI coming back saying this content is show. Has not been created by an individual that it then needs to give a a a list of the reasonings and so on. So then, show. You know, there's not just kind of 1 judge that's, that's technology, that's, takes us back to movies like Judge Dredd. Show. Paul Spain: But, you know, there's there's, you know, there there's there's a need to, you know, involve the educator in in that process, isn't there? And and it is important that, show. You know, we're we're not just doing things that that don't utilize AI because, you know, of course, that's part of the learning is how to use the AI tools, And we should be leaning in, and and they should be an important part of of the learning, journey as well. Julie McMahon: And from a show. Strictly digital technology standpoint, I know that, some people are saying, well, why should we teach coding? Because check GPT show. Without a program, you know, so we don't really need to teach anybody to code anymore. But, again, show. It doesn't always give the the best answer or the correct answer, and you need those analytical skills. You need to understand the code show. Enough. You need to understand the prompts. Julie McMahon: You need to understand the problem that you're trying to solve. So in order to even know, evaluate, show. Critically evaluate whether AI is is giving us something that's reasonable or not reasonable. We need show. To, a, have those foundational understandings of how things work under the hood and and be teaching those skills. How do show. How do we maybe refine refine a prompt or maybe as a teacher use chat GPT to have different show. Different prompts and then allow students to go off and work on them on their own. Julie McMahon: So I think that is, that's really important that we don't just show. And also we're using we're using it all the time. It's it's been in our Google suite. It's completing our emails and our and our texts and, you know, that's show. How we do searches. So, again, I think it's the critical evaluation. And Yep. Show. Julie McMahon: And it but if we say that we don't need to teach students to code anymore because we'll have AI to do it, then who's going to show. Make the next generation of our tools. Yeah. Paul Spain: Look. I I I think there's a lot of value in in in learning to code. Show. And even for those who end up in roles where they never ever have to have to code, having the that sort of deep understanding and that that knowledge, show. Is is immensely, useful in terms of understanding technology and and the possibilities. Show. Okay. Now sometimes I like to go out there with weird and wonderful, thoughts. Paul Spain: We've talked a little bit about AI and and, you know, where show. Can, or potentially can can fit in. And there's you know, you could extrapolate that out to some pretty interesting show. Results. And and now we're sort of seeing a number of companies that are working very hard on humanoid robots. Show. We're told these things are gonna you know, to to buy the what Tesla's working on, you know, supposedly is show. Is gonna be maybe in line with, I don't know, or a fraction of a, a year's worth of a teacher's salary. Paul Spain: Show. Can can you see a time in the future where, you know, our our real teachers are gonna be assisted by, you know, robots that are, show. Able to assist in class, assist on, I don't know, on the sports field, all all these sorts of things. Show. Is is that something that scares you or makes some sense? Julie McMahon: I think I in the past, I had actually taken a group of students show. Here to Auckland, and we went to visit Soul Machines. Paul Spain: Oh, fantastic. Yeah. Julie McMahon: And we were looking at sort of their digital assistants. And I can see show. That the technology, especially in learning where you might have a remote school that doesn't have a specialist, show. Physics teacher, for example. And you can have sort of a remote personality that show. Simulates a a teacher and simulates that, I guess, personal interface Yeah. Can deliver the content. Show. Julie McMahon: I do see those benefits. I'm not sure we're exactly there yet, but I can see where that might happen. Again, I still think that we show. Like our personal face to face Yes. Yes. Interaction, but I can see where those sorts of assistance show. Are being developed and can be beneficial if you think about where we we can't maybe staff show. A classroom with a specialist teacher. Julie McMahon: We can have them as aids, assistants. I Paul Spain: think it'd be very interesting to see how that fits in. And for those that are interested in, soul machines, show. We've got at least 1 episode where Greg Cross, is is on the New Zealand tech podcast. I want to look up. He's the chief executive there. Show. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think I mean, yesterday, public holiday here in Auckland, there was some, sports sports tryouts, which my son went to. Paul Spain: Show. And there was, you know, 1 teacher there who was the, he was the the cricket, guy. There was another teacher who was show. Not really, you know, involved too much, but needed to be there, in whatever form. And I'm not quite sure what the different what the different roles were. Show. But from from my observation was sort of, you know, largely observing, but also doing a bit of taking people's contact numbers and email addresses and show. And whatnot. Paul Spain: And I can see that that sort of thing. If you've got a shortage of teachers, your assistant could be robotic or if it's, show. And one of the things I wondered about because it was kinda, you know, a tryout for, you know, a couple of cricket teams, and I thought, hold on. This, show. You know, this teacher is engaging with usually a very small number of people, and then there's a whole lot of other people that are bowling and betting and show and whatnot that they can't possibly be observing at the the same time. And I'm thinking, yeah, how how do they do that? And, yeah, there was enough time. Show. I'm sure all of that was was handled well, but possibly you could have done the the same thing in half the amount of time, show. Paul Spain: On what was a public holiday, if you'd maybe had a little bit of technology to do some of some of that looking. Now the technology is not, you know, is not there at this point in time, but show. If we look sort of 10 years out and, the sort of budget challenges and so on we have, may maybe that becomes part of the picture. Julie McMahon: I did, show. See a presentation from some PhD students actually in AI from Otago University. Mhmm. And they were working with the stadium down there to help, show. Like, capture more angles and images and bring a better experience for the viewers Yes. So that you could actually see more of a three d show. Experience, and I can see where that technology could be used, yes, for a coach or for, you know, having observe people observing from the sideline that's giving you a show. Slightly different view than just 1 person. Julie McMahon: Yes. So I think that's those things are in in development. Paul Spain: Yes. And and a lot of it relies on on the show. The concept of of AGI or artificial general intelligence, which, you know, becomes a a a lot more, flexible. Show. Now, delving into to Grok Academy, you know, re really keen to to learn more, you know, about the organization, show. Founded in Australia. You're the the was it first employee Yes. Here, on the, the New Zealand show side, which is is really, pleasing. Paul Spain: But my understanding is you've had resources available to schools. And in fact but before you show. Joined Grok Academy. You were you were using, you know, the the, the services of Grok Academy. But up until 2024, that's been show. Thing that schools have have had to pay for. But the big news is that, this is now, show. You know, funded through through sponsorship so schools can jump on board and, and and use what you've got available, for free. Julie McMahon: Show. Yes. So Grok Academy, has been it's an educational nonprofit based in Australia. It was show. Behind the paywall just to support, you know, development of the resources, small teams, small dedicated team show. Developing programming, computer science, and some digital literacy resources. Our CEO, James Curran, show. He, was helped in his youth by some teachers sponsoring him to go to camps, show. Julie McMahon: Really seen some potential. And so he's always had this passion for helping learners reach their potential. Show. He ended up you know, he has a PhD in computational linguistics by being identified at at a young age, which he might not have had that opportunity. Show. And then, we've run computer there's the National Computer Science School, and that runs over the Christmas holiday or just after show. Christmas early January down in Sydney, and that has been sponsored by organizations to bring students show. Together expose them to digital technologies, career pathways, new tech that's coming out. Julie McMahon: And Richard White and WiseTech show. Global, which is, I think it's, one of the top logistics companies in Australasia. They had sponsored that, and show. Richard, decided he also was kind of a self taught person, and he decided he wanted to give back. So show. He has, pledged 1% of his profits for Grok Academy to enable us to offer our resources for show. So last year, free across Australia, launched free in, New Zealand this year, Ontario New Zealand, which is amazing. Show. Julie McMahon: Before it was behind a paywall, and so only maybe a small number of students could access it maybe in a senior digital technologies and CA level course. Show. Or and actually with the equity, you know, it might be a higher decile school where they, you know, charge fees, could afford it. Show. So this brings it down so that everybody has access to the digital technologies teaching. So our online platform, show. Now we have almost 50, educators on board developing new content, new resources. We have a teacher dashboard show. Julie McMahon: So teachers can see the progress of their students through the the learning. Teachers get access to solutions, show. Tech support, lesson plans. So it's all there to helps, you know, support teachers integrate digital technologies into the curriculum, and we've got a whole variety of show. Things that can be block based coding, microbits, Python, web design, data, data analytics, show. You name it. We probably have it design thinking. So Wow. Julie McMahon: It's a it's a huge benefit. And I know show. Through the subject association, through the DTTA forum, we announced and through some socials last year that it was coming on board. And those teachers that know about it, they're so, show. You know, so excited to have a quality resource that they can access for for free. Paul Spain: Well, I'm show. Our listeners will be you know, if they're involved in the education sphere, we'll be, we'll be spreading the word. And, you know, many, show. Listeners are are parents as well, and we'll be, nudging their schools to take advantage. Julie McMahon: And just show. On that. And if, you know, if there's a homeschool parent and they want to sign up, and they can access that as show. As well. So we we want equity for all learners. And like I was, you know, alluded to before, if if you show. Don't have that support early on. You don't see yourself being able well, good at it, having confidence, so a student might not show. Julie McMahon: See that. And a lot of times, teachers who are we call them out of field or not specialist digital technologies teachers, they're not confident. And so it show. It sort of lends itself to that. Oh, I think this is in the too hard basket, and so we'll just try to avoid it maybe if we if we have that opportunity show. Or not teach it with maybe confidence. And this way, people can, you know, have some guidance and support and help show. At a young age gain confidence and hardworking, confident teachers actually have some resources that they can make show. Julie McMahon: That are pre you know, premade online that they can utilize without having to reinvent the wheel all of the time. So I guess we're supporting both ends of the show. Spectrum. Paul Spain: That's great. And so so for teachers that are wanting to upskill themselves, you know, what what would those resources look like that are available? Show. Julie McMahon: So if they can, a teacher can do a course that's available to any of the students. But what we have when you're a verified teacher, show. We also have a teacher notes tab. So that goes into detail about what the concept is that's being taught. Some show. Maybe in different instances, unplugged or offline activities they can do in the classroom, the solutions. So show. A teacher can actually work through the course, and they're upskilling themselves, at the same time. Julie McMahon: Show. We also provide, webinars, professional learning. We go to conferences, do workshops with teachers. We're show. We're going to go to the technology education conference and do, several workshops. So we're, on the ground trying to show. Teachers as as well, and we have a dedicated support team with any technical questions or help onboarding show. Teachers in into the into the platform. Paul Spain: That's that's brilliant. And I guess one thing that comes to mind, you know, for me is you've got, show. You have 50 educators, which is, you know, it's a really good base. But, of course, once you've, you know, developed a lot of content show. And so on within the platform, then the next year swings around. You've already got all that content. So, you know, your your 50 educators are able to show go about, you know, both improving that content and and lifting it, but also, you know, producing a a broader, show. A wider variety of content, I presume. Paul Spain: So, I imagine that as as time goes on, you get a, show. You know, a better and better, capability there. Yeah. Julie McMahon: And we we do. And we like, we have this we call it our fun programming challenge, the n c s s, show. Coding challenge. It's over 5 weeks. It starts in a couple of weeks, and students are introduced to new problem solving concepts every week, and, show. They're guided through, you know, try, with live tutors available if they need it, trying to solve problems. So show. Right now, for example, one of our things we're refreshing that all to make sure that the problem content is improved and and slightly different from last year. Julie McMahon: But show. Also what we're trying to do, like work with providing professional learning, supporting teachers, and looking at ways through, through our engineering team in the background, show. How can we make the content better? How can we make use of new technologies such as AI? So we're able to, show. We're we're working on what we call next gen Grok into improving the current offering. It's show. Really good right now, but we have a team to keep supporting that. Paul Spain: And and how broad is the is the content, you know, show today. So I don't know. I'm thinking of let's let's say the the homeschool sort of example that, you know, you you mentioned someone that's homeschooling. Show. If there's a particular area where, you know, maybe a child needed to learn, maybe outside of digital technology, show. Do you go to sort of broader broader areas of the content? Julie McMahon: We don't at the moment. Our main focus is digital technologies, although we have some show. We have resources for primary, for lower primary, some unplugged activities, some logical, you know, thinking, computational thinking activities. Show. And then we go into, like, I said, block based coding using microbit simulators. So seeing how robotics works show. All the way through, you know, cloud computing and Yeah. Looking how to analyze data and what that what that means. Julie McMahon: So there's a whole range, show. Of resources available. But what we are looking at is then, show. In the future, expanding our using our platform, our current platform, how can we support other show. Areas of the curriculum, but right now, the main focus is in digital technologies and digital literacy. Yes. Yeah. Paul Spain: I think that there's gonna be, show. Yeah. Some interesting times ahead in terms of as we as we broaden out, you know, what becomes available online to educators. And show. I mentioned correspondence school before, Tikura. You can imagine you you could end up with resources available from show. A range of of sources that the effort that goes into produce it can, you know, can really be heavily, leveraged and and bring about, show. You know, either better outcomes in different environments or just access to a broader range of of capabilities to fill in some show. Paul Spain: Some gaps and to, you know, maybe help with that personalization, side more and and, you know, helping individuals who maybe they learn better show with digital content too. Julie McMahon: And one of the things that we're also, looking at developing more of, we have some resources, but looking at more where we are doing that, show. The CS plus X. So maybe using computer science or programming in a biology context show. Or in math's context or in a musical context. So we have some of those things, and we're looking at developing more content around that so that teachers and students can see show. How it is cross curricular. Paul Spain: Mhmm. Julie McMahon: So that's another area that we're expanding in. Paul Spain: Yeah. And there there's so many of those opportunities. I mean, show. I look back many decades to I think it was probably my 1st 1st year in high school at at Burnside High in Christchurch. Show. And there was a music class, and we, I don't know, had to make an instrument or something. So, of course, I went home and programmed something up to, show. You know, make an electronic keyboard on, you know, on my computer. Paul Spain: So there was those opportunities for crossover, which now more and more show. Probably, you know, relevant to people. So yeah. Oh, there's so many more things we can, we could delve into. Show. Is there there anything else as we sort of wrap up, Julie, that you'd like to mention that you think might be interesting to our audience, whether that's for show. Teachers and those within the education sector, parents or students that are listening or or anyone else more broadly that you think, show. There's a there's an important area we haven't touched on. Julie McMahon: I don't know that there's anything additional, to what we've we've talked to quite show. Wide range of things, but I guess reiterating the point that it's it's an important foundational skill. And I think if we're not offering it to students, we're they're show. We're closing pathways and, you know, for them in the future. And to reach out to, show. You know, Grok Academy, if now that you've heard of it, how can we support, get that into your school or, you know, homeschool, show. In order to support learners because, and maybe, you know, it's a it's a really good opportunity for a parent might be listening or or somebody who's on a a school board and think, are we actually doing enough in our school? And I think those conversations need to be had within at that level. Show. Julie McMahon: How are we supporting this in the school? Schools tend to have a lot of silos and show. Focus on, you know, it's a crowded curriculum. There's a lot going on, but you can bring in digital technologies show. Into schools when you you know, with with support. So I think it's important to have Paul Spain: those conversations. And how hard is it for a school to, show. Yeah. At least onboard in a small context some use of Grok Academy. Because I can imagine there will be there'll be people show. Listening in or having conversations around Grok Academy and the, you know, the conversation will go, look. We're way too busy to look at that this year. Show. Paul Spain: Maybe next year or the year after that we'll look at it, and there'll be others that will be jumping in, you know, bought boots and all, show. Very, very quickly. How easy is it to get started? Julie McMahon: It's very easy to get started. We've got all the schools on a school list. You can go into if you show. Go to grokacademy.org. It'll come up, start for free. You can use your Google or your Microsoft single sign on just show. To sign in as a teacher. We do verify every teacher. Julie McMahon: So, as long as you're a verified teacher, that's because show. Some cheeky students were registering themselves as teachers so they could get all the answers. So we do actually personally verify that, teachers are Teachers, you can actually a principal or somebody can bulk upload the teachers in their school. And then from there, we have a simple import of your classes into, show. Either from a spreadsheet or from Google Classroom to upload the students, and and then we've got a teacher dashboard where they can assign show. The student, the courses that they want. So to dip the toe into you know, we've got a a range of courses, so maybe dipping a toe in, contacting our show. Support desk, and we will be running some onboarding webinars, which I'll post after this onto the socials when they come up show. Julie McMahon: To help teachers, in schools and get started Okay. With it. So it's fairly simple. Paul Spain: Show. Great. Oh, well, thank you, Julie. It's been fascinating. Now there are some probably related episodes that that some, listeners may be interested in. Show. One question we posed on episode 560 was, will streamer or YouTuber be a future, job title for your child? Show. But, yeah, the range of, content there that may be, may be of interest. Paul Spain: More recently looking at AI and education and gaming. Show. Episode 661, so a more recent one. So lots here to help out, but it's been a great, conversation. So thank you for show. All your insights from, from the digital technology and education, world, Julie. Thank you. And, And, of course, a big thank you to our show partners, to Gorilla Technology, HP, Spark, 2 Degrees, and one show. Paul Spain: NZ. We really appreciate, their support. And, look, if you if you did find this, something that might be relevant, show. Maybe for for your school or, for others, then certainly feel free to, to share, this episode, with those that are relevant. Show, and we'll look forward to catching everybody on the next episode. If you've been watching our, video stream, then worth mentioning that you can also find us, show. Through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and whatever your favorite podcast app is. If you've been listening to the audio and you want to see us, show. Paul Spain: Then we do livestream most Tuesday, afternoons, and you can find that by following myself, Paul Spain, on LinkedIn, show. Or by tracking down NZ Tech podcast on YouTube, X, or Facebook. Alright. That's us. Thank you, and thanks very much, Julie. Julie McMahon: Thank you so much for this opportunity. You can tell I'm passionate about technology education. Paul Spain: I think we shared that with everyone today. Yeah. Thanks so much. Julie McMahon: Show. A principal or somebody can bulk upload the teachers in their school. Mhmm. And then from there, we have a simple import of your classes show. Into, either from a spreadsheet or from Google Classroom to upload the students, and and then we've got a teacher dashboard where they can assign show. The student the courses that they want. So to dip the toe into, you know, we've got a a range of courses, so maybe dipping the toe in, contacting our show. Support desk, and we will be running some onboarding